So, I’m one of “The well-trained virtuous among us”? Pretty darn condescending, Annabel. I simply have seen no evidence of fraud, and sorry, this does sound a bit like Trump’s favorite line “many people are saying” before throwing something that’s utter bullshit out there. He didn’t win all seven swing states plus the popular vote by dint of election fraud, although I can see that it could be comforting to think so.
No intention to condescend. I could have phrased it better. It is the fear of looking into it that is the issue, not the disbelief that there was tampering. That is the virtue signaling.
They ( the party leaders) may be afraid of violence if they propose an investigation. That fear may be justified but is not a reason to shy away from a full understanding of the vote.
The idea that we turn it over to an unfit man without looking into the results closely, just as in 2020 is the virtue signaling. A peaceful transfer of power is absolutely required, but first we need a consensus on who won. I am seeing a massive number of doubters, some of them both astute and level-headed. And yes, they could still be wrong, in which case the keys must be handed to the circus.
That is why I am agnostic.
But either way, the only way to quiet the doubters is to check to see if they are correct.
The truth matters.
Thank you for pointing out the tone. I am going to edit to make it more clear.
Ok, I changed the language. No citizen is virtue signaling in this situation. That problem falls on the leadership. Peaceful transfer is a given, but there are actually millions of dissenters as to the results.
I am not saying they are right. But it isn’t “people are saying” the way DT phrases it. These people have names. They are posting on social media, writing letters, and talking in bars and cafes.
And the transition will not be truly peaceful without addressing that part of the population and their doubts, founded or not.
I must disagree with your comment, Laurie. I am not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch, but I have learned to not put anything past Mr. Trump and his gang. I wonder what type of position you hold that because you personally have not seen any evidence of fraud, therefore you can conclude that there was no fraud? Perhaps no evidence of fraud has been presented to us because we have not demanded a simple recount.
A few more thoughts: I have tried here to be as unbiased as possible. This subject is inflammatory. I would much rather be looking at wallpaper samples but this is too important and I am seeing what I am seeing. A sizable population of American citizens mistrust these results.
This may be inevitable, considering the polarity in the electorate. But even so, it should not be ignored.
I absolutely respect each person’s right to an opinion. And, until there is proof otherwise, I respect your actual opinion, wherever you fall on this topic.
But, because the two sides here are diametrically opposed, only half are factually correct. If a recount of paper ballots were to occur, only half would be correct in their original opinion. I would hope that the incorrect half would concede the ground so we could move forward.
A terrible side effect of this controversy is that it is dividing the Democratic Party at a time when it is essential that we act in concert. We are arguing online and off when we should be forging a strategy.
I don’t think anyone believes our elections are infallible. That the machines are inviolate. No machine exists that can’t fail or be tampered with.
But that in itself does not prove anything. The fact that it could, under one or another set of circumstances be done does not mean it WAS done.
It also does not imply that it wasn’t. Very few of us have a deep understanding of how these machines work. And I am seeing a divide among the ones that are speaking on this topic.
That is why I believe there should be an investigation by an unbiased outside agent of some kind. Not anyone from amongst us, because no matter who it was half of us would reject the findings. Maybe the UN or some other European organization concerned with election integrity.
Once again- this is a suggestion that we lay it to rest in the only way that will do the job.
Interesting, Annabel. Not to torture you, but I agree with your first analysis. I love the term "virtue signaling", and I believe individually and collectively, the citizens who voted for Harris should voice concern to their elected officials, including me, instead of putting our collective heads down in acceptance. "Trust but verify". If we spoke up and demanded our elected officials do a recount of some sort, then maybe they would.
I agree with everything you've said, and everyone I know, including myself, is questioning the validity of this election. There are multiple reasons to believe the election was fixed. The silence about this on the part of the Democrats and their willingness to just roll over and die, is suspicious in itself. Are we to stand by and watch the demolition of any remains of democracy still standing? Has the whole kit and kaboodle been bought already? Does Russia and China now own the US?
You might also take a look at the very large number of people who for some reason didn’t vote. I was astonished to find out how many Democrats didn’t vote here in Washington State. I don’t think it was the exception.
That goes under the category of possible alternate explanations. But then again I am hearing alarming reports of Democrats who DID vote but when they checked there was no record of it. The thing may be over-determined.
I’m wondering where you are hearing this. I read a lot of newspapers and I haven’t seen word one about this. And actually I had been thinking that I might see people protesting and asking for a recount.
The news is not covering it for some of the same reasons they failed to report the truth about Trump during the run-up to the election. And the big media people on the Blue side because they would be tarred and feathered. They are afraid of violence. They are afraid of being called sore losers. They are just plain afraid.
It is hundreds of thousands of posts on social media and in groups. It is regular citizens driving the narrative and there are lots of them. Do you belong to any groups on Facebook like Cat Ladies for Kamala? Some have changed their names. Most are now private because they have been overrun with trolls. But every third post on those groups is about DT stealing it. It is on BlueSky. It is on Substack.
That is why I wrote this--because it is a groundswell. If you are not seeing it as posts or on comment sections, I would suggest that you are in a bubble, and you can't count on any news media to help you out.
Which does not negate the fact that this is happening.
As to why people are not in the streets--it's because getting people into the streets in this era is almost impossible. Even with marches planned months in advance. It just does not happen, and if it did it would not make much difference.
Social media is where public discourse happens now.
Read the rest of the comments on this post if you haven't. There are a few that are of the opinion it was stolen. They are the leading edge of a large wave.
You could ask them why they think what they think, if you want. Just please be respectful of the opinions of anyone on my page.
There are people from both camps here, and as I stated, I respect everyone's right to their opinion, whether I agree or not.
I am concerned about the immediate authoritarian process going on as Trump fires everyone and creates his shocking cabinet. Rachel Maddow has some very clear insights on it: https://youtu.be/Z0MGDh6hI1k?si=Rnf54bTOH0DvEyeb
So, I’m one of “The well-trained virtuous among us”? Pretty darn condescending, Annabel. I simply have seen no evidence of fraud, and sorry, this does sound a bit like Trump’s favorite line “many people are saying” before throwing something that’s utter bullshit out there. He didn’t win all seven swing states plus the popular vote by dint of election fraud, although I can see that it could be comforting to think so.
No intention to condescend. I could have phrased it better. It is the fear of looking into it that is the issue, not the disbelief that there was tampering. That is the virtue signaling.
They ( the party leaders) may be afraid of violence if they propose an investigation. That fear may be justified but is not a reason to shy away from a full understanding of the vote.
The idea that we turn it over to an unfit man without looking into the results closely, just as in 2020 is the virtue signaling. A peaceful transfer of power is absolutely required, but first we need a consensus on who won. I am seeing a massive number of doubters, some of them both astute and level-headed. And yes, they could still be wrong, in which case the keys must be handed to the circus.
That is why I am agnostic.
But either way, the only way to quiet the doubters is to check to see if they are correct.
The truth matters.
Thank you for pointing out the tone. I am going to edit to make it more clear.
Ok, I changed the language. No citizen is virtue signaling in this situation. That problem falls on the leadership. Peaceful transfer is a given, but there are actually millions of dissenters as to the results.
I am not saying they are right. But it isn’t “people are saying” the way DT phrases it. These people have names. They are posting on social media, writing letters, and talking in bars and cafes.
And the transition will not be truly peaceful without addressing that part of the population and their doubts, founded or not.
I must disagree with your comment, Laurie. I am not a conspiracy theorist by any stretch, but I have learned to not put anything past Mr. Trump and his gang. I wonder what type of position you hold that because you personally have not seen any evidence of fraud, therefore you can conclude that there was no fraud? Perhaps no evidence of fraud has been presented to us because we have not demanded a simple recount.
A few more thoughts: I have tried here to be as unbiased as possible. This subject is inflammatory. I would much rather be looking at wallpaper samples but this is too important and I am seeing what I am seeing. A sizable population of American citizens mistrust these results.
This may be inevitable, considering the polarity in the electorate. But even so, it should not be ignored.
I absolutely respect each person’s right to an opinion. And, until there is proof otherwise, I respect your actual opinion, wherever you fall on this topic.
But, because the two sides here are diametrically opposed, only half are factually correct. If a recount of paper ballots were to occur, only half would be correct in their original opinion. I would hope that the incorrect half would concede the ground so we could move forward.
A terrible side effect of this controversy is that it is dividing the Democratic Party at a time when it is essential that we act in concert. We are arguing online and off when we should be forging a strategy.
I don’t think anyone believes our elections are infallible. That the machines are inviolate. No machine exists that can’t fail or be tampered with.
But that in itself does not prove anything. The fact that it could, under one or another set of circumstances be done does not mean it WAS done.
It also does not imply that it wasn’t. Very few of us have a deep understanding of how these machines work. And I am seeing a divide among the ones that are speaking on this topic.
That is why I believe there should be an investigation by an unbiased outside agent of some kind. Not anyone from amongst us, because no matter who it was half of us would reject the findings. Maybe the UN or some other European organization concerned with election integrity.
Once again- this is a suggestion that we lay it to rest in the only way that will do the job.
Interesting, Annabel. Not to torture you, but I agree with your first analysis. I love the term "virtue signaling", and I believe individually and collectively, the citizens who voted for Harris should voice concern to their elected officials, including me, instead of putting our collective heads down in acceptance. "Trust but verify". If we spoke up and demanded our elected officials do a recount of some sort, then maybe they would.
I agree with everything you've said, and everyone I know, including myself, is questioning the validity of this election. There are multiple reasons to believe the election was fixed. The silence about this on the part of the Democrats and their willingness to just roll over and die, is suspicious in itself. Are we to stand by and watch the demolition of any remains of democracy still standing? Has the whole kit and kaboodle been bought already? Does Russia and China now own the US?
It might be worth taking a look at gregpalast.com and his movie Vigilantes Inc. I am currently watching it.
You might also take a look at the very large number of people who for some reason didn’t vote. I was astonished to find out how many Democrats didn’t vote here in Washington State. I don’t think it was the exception.
That goes under the category of possible alternate explanations. But then again I am hearing alarming reports of Democrats who DID vote but when they checked there was no record of it. The thing may be over-determined.
I’m wondering where you are hearing this. I read a lot of newspapers and I haven’t seen word one about this. And actually I had been thinking that I might see people protesting and asking for a recount.
The news is not covering it for some of the same reasons they failed to report the truth about Trump during the run-up to the election. And the big media people on the Blue side because they would be tarred and feathered. They are afraid of violence. They are afraid of being called sore losers. They are just plain afraid.
It is hundreds of thousands of posts on social media and in groups. It is regular citizens driving the narrative and there are lots of them. Do you belong to any groups on Facebook like Cat Ladies for Kamala? Some have changed their names. Most are now private because they have been overrun with trolls. But every third post on those groups is about DT stealing it. It is on BlueSky. It is on Substack.
That is why I wrote this--because it is a groundswell. If you are not seeing it as posts or on comment sections, I would suggest that you are in a bubble, and you can't count on any news media to help you out.
Which does not negate the fact that this is happening.
As to why people are not in the streets--it's because getting people into the streets in this era is almost impossible. Even with marches planned months in advance. It just does not happen, and if it did it would not make much difference.
Social media is where public discourse happens now.
Read the rest of the comments on this post if you haven't. There are a few that are of the opinion it was stolen. They are the leading edge of a large wave.
You could ask them why they think what they think, if you want. Just please be respectful of the opinions of anyone on my page.
There are people from both camps here, and as I stated, I respect everyone's right to their opinion, whether I agree or not.
I am concerned about the immediate authoritarian process going on as Trump fires everyone and creates his shocking cabinet. Rachel Maddow has some very clear insights on it: https://youtu.be/Z0MGDh6hI1k?si=Rnf54bTOH0DvEyeb